A Classic Debate


A few days ago, I came across this classic debate between two good friends Mr. X and Mr. Y. I felt that this debate among these two friends was worth sharing on my blog. So please have a look at it.

Mr. X on a social Networking site: "So long as you say 'I am', there is bound to be fear, but once you say and FEEL "I am GOD", you get unconquerable strength. " - Baba.

Mr. Y replies on google buzz - Do you think he was God?.

Mr. X - well, I guess there is a difference between god and a spiritual gurus whosoever be it, Buddha/Christ/Ramakrishna Paramahamsa etc etc. A guru opens the pathway to reach the god who is residing within the self.

Mr. Y - Hmm I see. Take a look at this.
Gives Mr. X a compiled video on youtube about Baba that depicts that he is a a fake.

FYI, John 10:30 - I and the Father are one. Jesus wasn't just a spiritual guru.

Mr. X - A guru is a person who has realized god. When a person has realized god, technically there would be no difference between god and the person. I am talking about the difference in which we see. "There is no difference between me and god" is his point of view and he wishes that the world to understand it but for a common man it is different. A man's mind dwells in duality. He cannot understand the ONE attribute less concept of the SOUL/GOD. Hence out of mere grace god takes a form of human to come down and put it down in words to explain the path to reach god. So there is a difference and there is no difference too.

Difference in our perspective and there is no difference in the guru's perspective. You might not have understood it, So let me put it in a simple way. Is there a difference between a chain and a ring? Yes there is, but to the mind because it sees duality but in reality there is no difference among the two. There are just two shapes of the same gold.


PS: My dear Friend, please try to understand what the Christ had meant, not what the Bible has said. <3 to you :)

Do you believe it if I made a fake video out of Christ saying crap? As he said, as anybody else said, it is all in the faith that you have. BTW, I am a totally sane 20 year old who knows what to believe and what not to believe. FYI, I never believed in him until he has left his body, but a few days ago, I've literally witnessed a miracle happen without his physical presence. That made me believe in him.

Mr. Y - If you think you know what Christ had meant without actually reading all the gospels, then good luck with that. The Bible is the word of God and you should probably read it as a whole instead of taking random verses out of context. You can charge those videos as fake but his so called miracles are clearly sleight of hand. Anyway, if you think we all are God and we just need enlightenment, good luck with that too. Jesus's words are VERY clear about him being equal to God, about His coming judgement. My only honest request of you would be that you read all the gospels once without any sort of pre-assumptions. See what Jesus exactly said. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6). That's pretty straight forward to me.

Mr. X - Well, the thought of reading it striked me but I do not want to get stuck up with this bible's version of Christ. Too much of inconsistency and controversies in the gospels. Well, even if i did read it, I wonder if that would be of any help because my broader knowledge and understanding about religions and faith would overpower me and I'd unconsciously relate stories of Bible with others and that wud make me believe that Christianity is just a Ctrl C Ctrl V version of other religions. I do not want this to happen, So I prefer not to.

Or may be you should read this book called Jesus lived In India by Holger Kersten. It is just an accumulation of facts, research work, science and logic. After reading it, I was able to picturize Jesus without shades of Christianity, its misconceptions and the contradictory gospels. I do have a strong picture of Jesus in my mind, in the way I see him, in the way I understand the words that he actually meant. There is no more room for Christians or Christianity in my world except for the Christ. The point is simple. I don't have to read a Bible to worship Jesus. My love for him would suffice.

BTW whats with your microscopic view about God? You do not read in between the lines do you? Even in the small verse that you've quoted there is a serious misconception.. "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." By saying "through me" Jesus doesn't mean "through Jesus" it means "through truth". Referring to the first words of the line. The bottom line is simple dude. God made you and me with equal love. That makes us siblings. When I totally believe that your love for god is same as mine why can't you do that? What makes you think of only jesus, only christianity? Tell me aren't All religions one?. I am amazed why can't you understand this simple logic.

Lets say when your mother in India weeps in front of a Vishnu's idol, thinking of you to be good in Arizona. Tell me what makes you think that god will not listen to your mother's prayers? Will he reject her prayers and tears just because she is expressing her prayers for god in front of an idol? Dude, realize that god is just an ocean of love. The love for god has no rules. He will answer to each and every prayer in whatever form he is called upon. God is not bound to one Jesus or one Christianity. If you cannot understand this, you've never understood what Jesus's heart is. <3

Mr. Y - Firstly, I did read your post about the book "Jesus lived in India". There is no "evidence" if any of what the book says is true. Moreover, I also saw your post on the resurrection of Jesus. It was nothing but taking verses out of context without even understanding what the gospel is trying to say. I have no problem in embracing all religions, but there is a serious problem in doing that. Jesus did NOT say he is one of the way, and you can keep interpreting verses from the bible in a way you want by continually taking it out of context. But it really does not change what Jesus said.

What the gospel of Jesus Christ says is very clear. God is Holy and we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. If God is a just God, we all deserve eternal punishment. But God out of his love for us (For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16), He let His son die on the cross so He can be the perfect sacrifice for our sins. By accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you can be assured of your salvation. Notice how the verse says "gave his 'only' Son". Jesus wasn't a guru as you put it, He was God himself manifested completely as a human. I don't worship a dead God, He is risen. And you might say you don't think the bible is accurate now but there are versions that are word to word translations of the original manuscripts that were written in Greek and Hebrew. There are no contradictions in the gospels and if you think there are any you can ask me. The biggest problem is that people take verses out of context. It's just sad that people think they know everything about who Jesus was, but kindly read the gospels fully before you come to your own conclusions. You can't read a book written by someone else to know what Jesus actually said, read the Bible that has all records of what Jesus said when he lived on this planet.

Mr. X - You read the book, not my blog dude! Words, Interpretation, Human mind. Mutually exclusive sets. As I said you are stuck up in the world of fanatics believing that what you believe is true just because that is the way it is believed by everybody else. In normal teachings you accept that 1 + 1 = 2 without knowing why because it is told. Spirituality is not like that. It is not about knowing the truth it is about realizing the truth. There is a difference between the two. You didn't answer my last few questions? Don't have an answer? :P PLease answer the last questions if you can.

Simple observation dude, Look at me Y, what I ask of you and what I answer to you about god are cutting in, directly from my intellect with deep insights, With my mind's understanding about what god is to me. This mind's understanding comes because of what I experience within. It is based on my relation with god within my heart but not based on a textbooked bible or anything else. On the contrary, just look at you. You keep quoting verses from Bible for backing up your answers my friend. There lies the difference. Your relation with god is based and bounded to Bible alone. When I say that a person in the recent past has done some amazing scientific research on this for 46 years of his life, you are not ready to believe it. You said there is no proof when he is literally showing the proof. LOL. So there is proof that the bible in your hand is exactly same in words, meaning and context as told by god huh? But still you believe it? Why because that is what is taught in churches aint it?

Bible told this. Bible told that. No. Cut it brother. What is god to you? Dive deep into your heart and ask yourself not the bible. Because that is what that actually matters.Edit3:26 am (edited 3:40 am)

Mr. Y - Your conception of God just completely shocks me. If everybody just looks deep into their heart to define who God is, it would lead to billions of different definitions of God. You can belittle me as I quote from the bible, but in my mind there is no doubt that it is the infallible word of God. To me it's clear that there can only be one God and not all faiths worship the same God. The amount of deception that is going on in this world is pretty scary and if your conception of God is purely driven by experience or emotions, I can't think of any other word but deception. I can literally sense the amount of pride you have when you talk about spiritual matters, like you've figured it all out. Talking about differences, there is a huge one between you and me. You can continually keep quoting what other people said, I won't stop quoting what the bible says. The bible is so much more credible. The old testament was written centuries before Jesus Christ came to the Earth and is full of prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus to the smallest of details. As long as you keep simply searching your "heart" for answers, you will keep getting deceived.

Are you aware of these scriptures?
"na tasya pratima asti" (There is no image of Him) - Yajurveda 32:3
"Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste" (They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti) - Yajurveda 40:9

Continue to keep doing what your heart says. And you're right, I can't answer the questions you asked me because my beliefs don't come from my own "intellect", it comes from the bible that teaches me who God really is. This conversation is probably not going to go anywhere because you think you've figured everything out. I won't be surprised if you tell the world one day that you're a spiritual guru because you've "realized" it.9:32 am (edited 9:33 am)

Mr. X - Kudos for quoting those verses. I am glad that a converted christian is still uttering verses from Veda. I might not know these two verses in particular. But I did read a lot of scriptures in Hinduism. And BTW I belong to Yajurveda only. Apologies for my rude behaviour. I admit it. I lost my cool. I should have chosen better words. There has always been this frustration within me that Hinduism has always been targeted by foreign faiths. My understanding about god is totally built on Hinduism buddy. I love it as much as you love Christianity. Tell me if somebody scolds Jesus, wouldn't you feel bad? You will right. Same is with me. I'd not accept if someone belittles Hinduism. The ego that I've shown is not to depict that Mr. X >> Mr. Y in spirituality or that I am going to be a guru or not any such crap. It is an unconscious act of displaying that HInduism >> Christianity just like how you guys try to imbibe on others that Christianity >> Hinduism.

Why are you turning tables now as if I am the bad guy here. I am the one here who is respecting both the faiths. Not you right? What do you think Y? If a random guy knocks my door saying that Hinduism is wrong, my way of worshipping is wrong, and other stuff, Do you think that my faith in god will shatter so easily? Or do you think that I should bear this crap when he/she speaks ill about my faith right on my face? It is just an attacking stance my friend. I am not any other hindu who'd sit silent when fanatics attack my faith. My mind is not so fickle or confused to believe that I'd get baptized or flip faith thinking that one god is wrong and the other is right. Did I bother you? Did I bother to teach you about Hinduism? Did I bother to enforce my beliefs on you? No. Instead I said I respected both the faiths believing that god is one. I just gave a reply to your initiated accusation in my own way. If you consider that as bad/rude behaviour what can I do bro? My answer is to prove that I can debate as much as you can. I can speak the glory of Hinduism as much as you can about Christianity. I stand by my word and faith as much as you stand by yours. I am really sorry If I was rude. Nothing really personal here. I just dont have the habit of backing off or surrendering when I, or my faith is attacked.

And again from the bottom of my heart I say that this discussion has got nothing in personal between Mr. X and Mr. Y. Lets stop it here as this is not getting anywhere, if you wish to end it. :)

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I came across this interesting debate and I was just unable to take sides simply because X and Y are two good people and most importantly they are very good friends with a same goal but of different ideologies. I am just eager to know if there are any flaws in the way each of them think. Are you taking someone's side in this debate? If so why? If not why? Dear readers, Please do drop in your honest comments for this interesting debate. Your comments would probably help me take a side and might probably help each of them to change their opinions if either one of them was wrong. :)

PS: Please be honest but don't be rude. After all they are just two good people. :)

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